The New South Institute’s podcast series, Governing Tomorrow, continues to bring public service reform and institution-building into a more accessible, practical conversation. Hosted by Yoliswa Makhasi, NSI’s Head of Public Sector Reform, the series convenes policymakers, practitioners, and civil society voices to reflect on what is required to build a capable and ethical public service in South Africa.

In Episode 5 (December), Yoliswa is joined by Nicole Fritz, a human rights lawyer and Executive Director of the Campaign for Free Expression. Their discussion is anchored by a direct question: what are the risks if South Africa does not professionalise and reform the public sector? Fritz argues that the state’s ability to confront unemployment, poverty, and inequality depends on a functional, competent, and ethical public service. The conversation also notes progress on the Public Service Amendment Bill, while stressing a familiar challenge in reform efforts: legislation matters only if implementation follows.

The episode then turns to how institutional weaknesses can enable capture and harm citizens. Fritz revisits the social grants litigation involving Black Sash to illustrate how departmental leadership can be sidelined through parallel structures, opening space for improper contracting and predatory practices that disproportionately affect vulnerable grant recipients. From there, the conversation considers what officials can do when they experience political interference, including the limited protection many whistleblowers face and the importance of strengthening safeguards for disclosures made in the public interest. The discussion also reflects on the wider governance consequences of weak delivery, declining trust, and pressure on civic space—particularly on the conditions that allow open participation and free expression to endure.

Episode 5 builds on the series’ recent conversations over the past few months: in August, Yoliswa interviewed Malaika Mahlatsi on youth in the public service; in September, she spoke with Pam Yako in a Women’s Day episode; in October, she hosted Ivor Chipkin on public service reform; and in November, she was joined by Public Protector Advocate Kholeka Gcaleka. Together, these episodes connect reform debates to lived experience inside institutions, the political-administrative interface, and the practical choices that shape state capability.

Watch Episode 5 on YouTube, and subscribe to Governing Tomorrow to receive new episodes as they are released.